•Jonathan shouldn’t allow himself to be used for some people’s agenda
As the rumoured ambition of former President Goodluck Jonathan to contest the 2027 presidential election continues to dominate the political space, the President of the Middle Belt Forum (MBF), Dr. Bitrus Pogu, has advised the former president not to be drawn into the contest just because some people want him to serve their purpose.
Pogu also noted that the former Kaduna State governor, Nasir El-Rufai hates the Middle Belt with passion, stressing that in a civilised clime, the former governor would have been a guest of the Department of State Security (DSS) because of his utterances.
In an interview with VINCENT KALU, the MBF president said if the bandits terrorising the country are aware that they cannot get a lifeline through negotiation, they would either drop their arms or run for their lives.
There are trending videos of bandits armed with sophisticated weapons holding peace meetings with security agencies and community leaders, especially in Katsina State. However, the orgy of killings continues thereafter. What do you say to this?
It is the failure of the state. The way and manner in which insecurity is confronted by government has been faulty ab initio. That’s why we’ve been saying that the whole approach has to change. Even before Muhammadu Buhari became president, he made some startling statement, which can be Googled and up to now they still exist, where he said these are their boys and they are fighting for their interests, et cetera.
Secondly, I remember that at a stage, during former Goodluck Jonathan’s period, when negotiations with the terrorists were going on, the Boko Haram nominated the late president as their negotiator. Now, you ask questions. Why is the military being constrained in their approach? Because those of us who stay in areas where these people exist and where they operate, we know that even the vigilantes and the soldiers are stopped from killing them; knowing full well that these people are vicious killers.
Remember also that these abductions started later. At the beginning, it was just attacks, killings, and now it has metamorphosed into abductions for ransom, which they have used to fuel and to sustain themselves to continue to operate, and go against ordinary Nigerians.
Now, it requires political will. Tell soldiers to forget about whatever suggestions coming from whichever quarters that these people shouldn’t be decimated, and deal with them ruthlessly as killers, as common criminals, not as freedom fighters or whatever. Now, if that is done, I can assure you that the morale within the military would improve and increase, and secondly, these people will not last long; they will flee and the whole place will be tidied up. But, as long as the government and people in authority negotiate with these people using the recent term used by whoever that said this thing cannot be solved through kinetic processes, but we should use non-kinetic processes, we will get nowhere.
These people are not stronger than our military, but the military is constrained. Soldiers are even frustrated because they are usually stopped from killing these terrorists, and that is why they have been emboldened to come out, and with their arms to even negotiate freely with authorities. We have failed the people of Nigeria and that has to change.
Recently, many security personnel, ranging from soldiers to civil defence operatives have been killed. Are you concerned?
The issue is that these people are not more powerful than our military, but they are entrenched in the system; even within the security forces, there are people who support the existence and the operations of these people. There are technologies these days like common drones, not even the sophisticated ones. Common drones that can see things happening before they happen are available. How would a military installation be sabotaged to the extent that these people will come and meet them unprepared and then overrun them?
In the second place, using similar surveillance capabilities, any group on patrol can have an aerial view of anything ahead of them before they get there. These technologies are there. They are not too costly, and the military should resort to them.
Thirdly, the approach, as I told you earlier, where sometimes these criminals are surrounded by the military, and yet the soldiers would be instructed not to kill them. We have heard this several times, not once, not twice, to the extent that soldiers do get frustrated and withdraw from the military; from the army.
Now, there should be a line drawn. A criminal is a criminal. These criminals have guns, and they have dangerous weapons.
The military should be instructed to just eliminate them so that we can have a sane state out there. That is the way, but when we have people in government talking from both sides of the mouths that we cannot solve it through kinetic, and that we need a non-kinetic approach, and talking all sorts of rubbish. We cannot solve this problem that way. Our military is being frustrated, while these people are getting emboldened because they have been sustained for too long in the interest of whichever group. If they know that there is no way of negotiation, there is no way of succour, they will either drop their arms or run for their lives. So, the way forward is the political will to eliminate them, and then we’ll have peace.
There is so much money to be shared by the tiers of government every month. The federal government goes home with humongous amount, likewise the states and the local governments. This is coming from the removal of fuel subsidy and other taxes being imposed on the people, and yet the cry of hunger and hardship in the country persists. How can one reconcile both scenarios?
The hunger thing has to do with production, which is not as before because there are so many areas where farmers cannot go to the farm because of insurgency; because of the fear of kidnapping and all sorts of banditry around the country. That puts a lot of pressure on food production.
However, the issue of money has to do with the value of the money rather than the quantity of the money.
Yes, they are getting stocks of money, billions and millions; even local governments are getting hundreds of millions, but the problem is, what is the value of the money? Before this government came in, if you have not forgotten, in the open market, the value of a dollar was between N740 and N750; at the official rate, it was about N450. When this government came in, there was serious devaluation of the naira in the open market or the parallel market, or whatever you can call it. It skyrocketed to about N1, 600, and it went up to even N1, 800 before it came down now to about N1, 500, and has stayed around that. Now, assuming that somebody collected N4 billion, that money could buy a bit more in terms of prices or cost of materials at that time than what N9 billion can buy today. I’m just giving a comparative analysis.
So, though a lot of money is being pumped into the system, the value of that money has been drastically reduced because of the devaluation and therefore it amounts to nothing. The devaluation isn’t necessary in terms of achieving whatever it is that should be achieved in the country because the cost of living has risen so high. If you used to buy a Mudu of grains for whatever amount, that price has doubled or even sometimes tripled. So, even if you have more money, it cannot buy as much as it could buy before. So, this is the problem. Devaluation has drastically reduced the values of money.
Our economists should advise government that when they talk of devaluation, one should weigh the impact of devaluation internally. Yes, they would say that it stimulates trade, but what are we stimulating? We only export oil. What does that mean? It’s a one-product thing. So the devaluation of our currency doesn’t stimulate anything in terms of exports, it only weakens our economy and puts pressure on the pockets of everybody in the economy. Salaries have been increased, yet the value of what they are collecting is nothing to write home about because of the devaluation.
Former Kaduna State governor, Nasir El-Rufai, the other day, during a television interview talked down on Southern Kaduna people in terms of their population and other issues, and this pitted him against the Middle Belt people. What have you to say on this?
El-Rufai has never liked Middle Belt people; he also never liked the people of Southern Kaduna. He discriminated seriously against them. And whatever he says now is just an extension of what he has done. He ensured that lots of developmental projects in Southern Kaduna were denied them while he was in office.
He practised serious religious bias against the people of Southern Kaduna, who are predominantly Christians, and did all sorts of things. But with regards to the demographics, which he’s talking about, it is not true. If the populations are the way he put it, then why are they bringing in people from all parts of Africa to settle in Kaduna and other areas to attempt to upset the population in Southern Kaduna?
The problem with this country is that people work for power just for their personal interests because the country has not yet become a nation.
People like El-Rufai will continue to exploit, whether it is religion, tribalism, or whatever, for their selfish interests.
Remember, these people are the same people who conspired against former President Goodluck Jonathan in 2014? El-Rufai was at the centre of it. He was within the Buhari’s government as governor in Kaduna State. He discriminated seriously against the people of Southern Kaduna.
There are recordings where he said he succeeded in imposing a Muslim-Muslim ticket on Kaduna and they have succeeded in doing the same at the national level. These recordings are in the open. President Tinubu refused to go along that line. He is saying anything he feels like against everybody. In some civilised societies, a person like him should have been queried by the security agencies as to some of the things he is churning out, which have no basis both against the Southern Kaduna and against the country.
You mentioned the issue of demography and the population. The government is talking about conducting a census, probably next year. In this vein, President Tinubu has set up an eight-man census committee, three from the North and five from the South-West. Knowing how sensitive the issue of census has been in this country, how would the other parts of the country see this arrangement?
In our plural Nigeria, I can tell you that people will not take it lying low, and I believe also that Mr President, being somebody who listens; he is going to do something to that committee to ensure that there is some balancing to reflect the Nigerian complexity and plurality. I don’t think before the census takes place, that list will continue the way it is.
However, I believe that today, we have technology that can improve on things.
But if you know the number and the volume of people who are non-Nigerians today in Nigeria, people brought in for political reasons to affect, influence and change the demography for reasons unknown to you and I, it is so alarming.
You will be on the street, you meet a cobbler, just ask him where he is from; he may tell you that he is from Niger Republic or Chad. You see them everywhere, some of them are cutting nails, and some of them are water vendors in some remote areas. Then, you ask, how did these people come in; and who brought them in and for what reason?
These are things that people do just to manipulate the system in their favour, but I can assure you that technologies are available to ensure that such things are checked, and some bogus claims by people, who we know don’t have the population, but have been manipulating the system in their favour. Through technology, we’ll be able to correct those things. Yes, some people may threaten fire and brimstone and all sorts of things, but we just want a president that will stamp his feet and say this has to be done right, no matter the cost in order to move Nigeria forward. Gradually we’ll get to the stage through restructuring to get a Nigeria that works for all.
There are rumours that former President Goodluck Jonathan is being pressured to contest the 2027 presidential election. What’s your take on this?
My advice, sir, you’ve tested that place. Don’t allow yourself to be used for some people’s agenda. You are respected not only in Nigeria, but also across the world.
Relax, enjoy your life. You have not yet eached 70, but you have quite some time to live, by the grace of God. Don’t be drawn into the mess we are in. We know that you can do lots of things for this country, but don’t be drawn into the contest just because some people want you to serve their purpose. Think about Nigeria. Forget about sentiments. That would be my advice.
What’s your position on the new tax policy of the Federal Government?
Over-taxation doesn’t develop any economy. What should be focused on is production. Let’s ensure that the raw materials we are churning out, which China is taking to their countries to develop, are developed locally here. And we should start exporting finished products, and create jobs for our people; our currency will be stronger and the value of life in Nigeria will improve.
Taxation only creates burden on the people. Let’s concentrate on production. Production is what we should focus on. Let’s stop sending raw materials, but manufacture finished products in Nigeria with what we produce.
And let’s ensure that we are able to provide the food we eat and then use the materials that we have to add value to bring more income to the country.
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